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Tubes and Subways (Jul 8, 2005)

The terrorist attack on London yesterday was terrible, but as always, us British continue as normal. It has however affected one of my long-term plans: to build a CS map based on the London Underground that doesn't suck.

There are two points here. First, should events in the real world affect my want and desire to create such a map? The attacks were bad, people died and their bodies are still in the tunnels and on the affected trains, teams evacuated due to safety concerns. I'm don't want to get into the entire discussion about terrorism and art because that's not what I do. I really want to recreate the feel of the London system in a map, but avoid any references to the attack and hopefully create the same map that I would have done if there were no attacks. Timing is obviously a factor. It'll be hard to create a map without triggering thoughts of London yesterday.

Secondly, why do all CS maps involving subways or underground systems really not work? It actually isn't CS-specific, but these places never feel as honest or as involving as other themes and locations. Typically, they feel fake and monotonous. I realise that generally, underground systems are boring and monotonous, but so are warehouses and docks, which have been brought to life on numerous occasions. It's one thing to create such a map, it's another to make people feel like they want to play it.

Usually, these maps are just too dull, square and neat. Sometimes they're completely the other way (over the top, unrealistic and dark). Never do they quite pick up the fragrance correctly. The Tube is full of variety and colour, and combined with the above-ground stations, offers quite an opportunity for a mapper to create something that not only looks good and feels real, but plays well and lasts long.

The key thing with themes where there is monotony and a sense of over-consistency is to invite individuality and variety within the same context. Landmarks work in concealed environments, they just have to be presented very differently. It's one of the hardest skills to grasp, one I still battle with (I much prefer creating outdoor environments rather than largely indoor ones) but one that will open the door to a much more interesting variety of themed maps.

« The beauty of newbies Common sense strikes again »

user comments

Rusty Le Cyborg at 13:36 on Jul 8, 2005

To be honest, unless you detach yourself completely from real world events it is hard to play any game of CS without triggering SOME memory from the events of the past 20 years or more.

It's a question of personal taste whether you make or play maps with a certain subject matter. School hostage situation? Train bombing? I seem to remember a map themed on the WTC, but some "joker" put falling npc models and sound effects in it... now that to me is unacceptable.

Would you play the new Assault map if it was a school instead of a warehouse or if the hostages were children instead of adults? As I say, it's a matter for the map maker and player enirely.

Back to the idea that indoor maps can be a bit dull, I had always found Fastline a nice map to play in CZ. I do suppose it could be made into an outdoor map and still have the same "feel".

A map similar to Miami on XBox CS where the CTs start outside would be a good compromise, or even something similar to Train.

Simon at 13:45 on Jul 8, 2005

Yes the attacks were the worst terrotist attacks in living memory.

But CS is just a game, Simple as, I wouldnt mind if you made a map where you had to place a bomb on the tracks or a bus, sure its a little distasteful, but its only a game, and it would make it more realistc.

When was the last time you heard about terrorists blowing some boxes up in a dusty city?

dave at 14:01 on Jul 8, 2005

That's the way I'm leaning, but of course there's always the loud minority who claim that such a creation is disgraceful and stir up Tabloidesque disgust. We're told to carry on living life as if there were no attacks, because us changing our life is exactly the aim of the Terrorists. To avoid making what I want to make would be admitting defeat.

Rusty: Even without the terrorist attack on the WTC, falling, bodies falling and screaming in that map is still pretty despicable. The terrorist attack just amplifies it.

Jimmy at 15:01 on Jul 8, 2005

I agree w/ Simon, it is just a game. All die hard CS players and map makers walk down a street or where ever and think "This would make a great map"

It's not like you weren't already thinking about making one and I am sure I would have been a DE type map. If you would have already made it, would you stop playing it becuase of the recent events?

By they way, love you work and Blog.

Rusty Le Cyborg at 15:38 on Jul 8, 2005

True enough DaveJ...

As I said... if you feel okay with it that's fine... I would play it...

Atrocity at 22:29 on Jul 8, 2005

Wow this is actually a really touchy topic. But I must say I think it can be done with taste. We all know if you created a london underground level it would be done with taste and not disgust and immaturity. [excuse my spelling]

Graham at 13:02 on Jul 9, 2005

I live in the UK, and I wouldn't be offended by a subway map. I still really like de_rapidtransit.

The thing with the WTC map that someone made... well, it was done quickly about a week after 9/11. It was terrible. Bad constructed, badly textured. A bad representation of a plane hitting a tall tower, with gibshooters, and then the building with slide into the ground. There was no gameplay there.

And that's the thing. It was done with the *intent* of offending people. That was it's only aim.

I'm betting any map you would make, Dave, would not have the same purpose.

dave at 15:27 on Jul 9, 2005

Ok, so we've established a Tube map wouldn't be offensive if done right. Good, that's what I thought!

What are your thoughts on existing subway/tube/trainstation maps? Do you find them as bland as I do?

Rusty Le Cyborg at 16:15 on Jul 9, 2005

Just had to spark up CZ to let you know :)

I played through Fastline, which is a great map in my opinion. It doesn't take too long to get into battle and it is detailed enough not to be boring.

Rapid Transit is a stunning map and would be worthy of a release with CZ. Large areas to get lost in and plenty to look at.

Subway for CS is okay, but is not in the same league.

It depends how immersed you want to be in the game. If you have a map that has "sky" it gives the feeling of a much larger playing area. I suppose you could always wonder what's behind that wall or what's over the horizon, so underground maps could be a little limited there.

So, if you are going to make one, make it visually appealing. Plenty of adverts, posters, machines etc.

Atrocity at 07:14 on Jul 10, 2005

Well I think everyone pictures subways as dark and gloomy places where muggings take place. Clearly in your picture it looks colorful and amazing. I think also with the amount of detail you could pack into it it would be one hell of a map.

T@T-2-MoNk3y at 19:24 on Jul 10, 2005

a location that might work well for this could be an interchange station... where underground and overground trains stop. this would give you some outdoor areas to play with...

Graham at 02:05 on Jul 11, 2005

There appears to be a word limit on these posts, but since this'd be a crappy model I'm going to try to post it as two separate messages. Hope you don't mind.

As noted, I like rapidtransit. But a few others spring to mind...

First of all, one of the old official Counter-Strike maps called, I think, de_railroad. It was in some the early betas, the graphics were pretty terrible and the layout left something to be desired. But despite all the technical flaws, it was still fun. This was largely because of the functioning train (like the trains in HL, not a real-world train) that you could climb aboard and control.

It was different. A little gimmick-y, but really just great fun to whiz round the map on, shooting at people as you flew past. It was a focal point for pretty much all the action, and yet it physically moved. I don't think there's ever been a CS map like it.

The other maps I'm thinking of are in other games. One, the early Subway levels in Max Payne, which I seem to remember were suitably dingy and yet not bland in terms of texture or lighting. And two, the subway levels early on in Soldier of Fortune. I must have played those maps over and over again, simply to shoot the bad guy while he's peeing and to jump on the roof of the moving train at the end.

Graham at 02:06 on Jul 11, 2005

Continued!

What I've always *wanted* to see though isn't a subway per se, but rather a complete train station. I pass through Glasgow Central Station pretty regularly, and I've always thought it'd be an awesome map. Picture of part of it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GlasgowCentral.jpg.

You've got your high ceilings and glass roof which gives you the feeling of being outside, you've got lots of beams, stone arches, and wood-fronted shops round the edges. Various kiosks in the middle break up any potential feelings of emptiness, and the reverse view of that picture has the trains (bomb targets!), and a road entrance for taxis.

And if that weren't enough, you've got windows like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Heilanman%27s_Umbrella%2C_Glasgow.jpg

I enjoy just geeking out over the architecture.

Oh, or if you're looking for something more art deco-ish, there's http://www.nerdtundra.com/station.jpg. Or if you want something more curvy/modern, there's http://www.nerdtundra.com/station2.jpg.

Man. I've always wanted a really cool train-related map. I have all these train related reference shots that I'd totally forgotten about.

Graham at 02:08 on Jul 11, 2005

Uhh, FYI, it's included the full stops as part of the links. Remove the . and they'll work.

And I'm done.

Honest.

Octavian at 08:23 on Jul 11, 2005

I dont see a problem with it being disgusting or disrespectful, but what i would be more worried about would be will it be seen as 'cashing in'? It may come accross as being a tacky grab at getting downloads from feeding on people macabre curisoity.

I know thats not why youre doing it, but thats what I myself would be worried about if I were considering making it.

dave at 08:37 on Jul 11, 2005

Graham: Oddly enough, I've been looking at that station and the underground part (http://world.nycsubway.org/eu/uk/glasgow.html). The fact it's quite unique makes it an interesting subject.

Octavian: That's definetely an important issue. I spose one could always just change the subject from London to some other city, but that's just avoiding the issue. Unfortunately I can't see any other solution...

Graham at 13:05 on Jul 11, 2005

I've never actually been on the Glasgow Subway, since I'm coming in from outside (via Bridgeton) and everywhere I'd want to go is within walking distance of Central.

But one of the reasons I brought up Central Station is that it has parts of it that are underground. The last minute or so of my journey into Glasgow is spent in a pitch black tunnel, before stopping at an underground level to the station. Then it's up a few flights of stairs and along a few corridors to get to the main station hub.

The biggest problem with doing a subway map though is still going to be finding a way to be realistic and logical, but have gameplay that doesn't suck. Lots of these subways look cool, and have really nice features that would be good for a map, but layout-wise I'm not sure how you'd make it work...

Mathew at 18:48 on Jul 11, 2005

I agree with everything that has been said here. I think you should go ahead and make the map.

Octavian at 21:31 on Jul 11, 2005

Dave, one solution could be to make it obviously the London Underground, but name it something fictional.

This is what Dice did with Battlefield 2 to avoid being accused of cashing in on the Iraq war, instead of naming their maps "Fallujah" or "an-Nasiriya", they made up fictional city names, even though the maps are inspired by true life mid-eastern cities.

Just one idea.

Mathew at 22:11 on Jul 11, 2005

That's a pretty simple solution. It's not like any of the official Counter-Strike maps are ever really clear on where they're set. Italy doesn't count. ;)

dave at 22:26 on Jul 11, 2005

Octavian: producing fake but believable names is actually one of the things I enjoy most about level design simply because of all the associated assets. I mean, for a Tube map I'd even have to update the track posters and ensure the station position is accurate...

Fabian Trevelyan at 15:56 on Jul 12, 2005

Do the map Dave. You are the best level programmer in the world and you are well placed to make a sensitive yet stunning representation of the theme.

Tom at 16:25 on Jul 12, 2005

I think the outside world will react badly to a de_ map of the London underground. If it's a cs_ one that would help a lot, and if it's not London you're sorted.

Chris Pollard at 15:30 on Jul 13, 2005

Hey Dave, I am in agreement that most of the gaming community would welcome the map, and the fact that reality is mirroring fiction again(ie: Homegrown bombers from Spooks) would certainly add an extra element of realism... But, there is is a definite possiblity that the media could notice the map and use it to once again attack the gaming community as 'encouraging/condoning violence' in this case the horrific acts of last week. I would urge you to strongly consider delaying release of the map, at least for a while, as I know that having some Sun hack doorstepping you wouldn't exactly be your cup of tea. I know that the map is in the early stages of development so timing hopefully won't be such an issue. Anyway, I know that was a bit garbled, just let me know when you need it tested!

Graham at 22:52 on Jul 13, 2005

I think it's unlikely some Sun hack would notice. For one thing, it'd be an amateur map, technically speaking. If it was released as part of a retail game or made by a professional company, then it could be used as an example of the industry supposedly condoning evidence. But if it's just a bloke on the interweb sticking it on his netpage, then, well, that's not really News. That's not even justifiable Fake News. "Man Condones Violence, More at 11"? Even if it were true, that's not going to resonate with the Daily Mail readers.

Wild accusations work best when thrown at big companies or celebrities. Dave isn't either. Outside of our own little gaming subculture, at least.

zooyork at 20:33 on Jul 17, 2005

hey man i think that if you make the map on the underground british subway now, it will kinda make people feel wierd playing it
you should make a subway map of new york or something, cause then it wont really relate to the attacks